On some He will act directly; others He will be aware of and use for His purposes. @ Junkster: No one at my church answers to RC Sproul or John Piper, even though their materials are used sometimes. In fact, as Sproul describes what he sees as the sovereignty if God, his view is the latter- that God exercises his sovereignty by choosing what he allows and what he does not. LL.B (Hons) London, CLP. Reformed theology teaches that God in His grace and mercy has chosen to redeem a people to Himself, delivering them from sin and death. He beat me to the punch. @ Daisy: She discussed the abuse that she has been subjected to in her life. Happy Holidays. But I can say, knowing what I now know about God, that God would never ever ever have set the evil I suffered in place intentionally. Of course, they mean the local church that thinks like them. Yes, they too wrote thousands of pages, but at least they werent lawyers! So thank you Jeff S. I have read John Pipers paper on why he believes what he does and have seen many debates both for and against Calvinism. Ex-Calvinist Daniel Gracely in his book Calvinism a closer look writes: "Calvinist and Non-Calvinist do not share the same meaning of words.. Your voice is missing! I Am a Christian - The first reason I'm not a Calvinist is that John Calvin was a man. I inferred, from the context in which you placed it, that by child you meant someone innocent of knowledge, using the examples you gave as metaphors, since, of course, Jesus didnt tell us to believe in those things. Earthquakes, tsunamis, category five tornadoes, decrepitude and death are all beyond our pay-grades to decide upon, much less get resolution from. A person who has been abused should get A LOT of leeway in airing their feelings, because for a time (maybe a LONG time), the value of their free expression is more important than trying to protect a viewpoint. Ive lost track of the number of times in blog comments where it has been insisted that it means that we are as bad as we can be. Quotes about calvinism Weeps with you. Paul admonished the church in Corinth for following men, when they were saying, "I follow Paul" or, "I . People, including you, got upset from Calvinists just stating their views. Learn as I go, mistakes & big mess. Michael Horton, in For Calvinism, w/ an intro by Roger Olson (a book I will probably keep mentioning, if you dont mind, because it deals with the issues discussed here and on other blogs) even has a chapter on the obnoxious ways of some Calvinists, and how to get past it. He exercises his power and sovereignty over all created things. He remarked that our theology was illogical. I hear the word "gospel" placed in front of all primary and secondary issues. It doesnt conform to our sense of fairness and love. Accept that many Calvinists have never experienced a doctrinally rigorous, non-Calvinist church. Paul teaches that it is in God that we live and move and have our being (Acts 17:28), Page 80: As for it being our purpose in life, its about as inspiring as a plate of lima beans for breakfast. What makes anyone think that we are going to solve it in a Bible verse war? For non-Calvinists, this can get very confusing since each claims that theirs is the real interpretation of Calvin. Does not compute. What Julie Anne is saying is also elaborated by Christa Brown in chapter 46 of her book This Little Light as well as here: http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org/ravagedfaith.html. What scientists call the laws of nature we call normal operations of the sovereign God. And even if God has blessed them, more often that not, Gods blessing is a resource, not a reward. . 1554-1612), who was trained in theology in a university (Cambridge), and Thomas Helwys (ca. Michael Horton, a Calvinist, did the forward to the book. He is still in a leadership position within the church. God is bigger than us and is beyond our understanding except for some basics. Maybe I need to be corrected here: I have made the assumption that meticulous sovereignty (God has ordained every word that leaves my mouth, for example) is a tenet of calvinism because I hear it preached and defended vociferously from the reformed camp. LOVE, this comment at a whole, Muff. And I get better at flying (so to speak). @ Headless Unicorn Guy: ISTM, that the fundamental issue in abuse is betrayal. Probably originated with Calvinists during the Reformation Wars or their descendants the Puritans; as an answer to the question Am I One of The Elect? Using Im Rich! I would say its better to address individual issues anyway rather than decided if you can accept the tag. Its very difficult and exhausting having a conversation with people who claim you never, ever get their views correct. I check out on their sub and they lile John Calvin and said that his theologybwas a major necessity to make their 33(?) God in nature, God in history, God in grace. Only a source of proof-texts for Calvins Institutes. Witherington and Lenski are not Calvinists, but they're not Arminians, either. Ah, elastigirl, I have missed you and your wonderful thoughts. Ill never forget a while back in our city when two young Christian college kids were killed, execution style, in a terrible, senseless crime. The first two Baptist theologians were John Smyth (ca. Jeff S wrote: My experience with this cult gave me a starting point to question my need for God in my life and showed me how to trust God rather than blindly follow a man-led cult. held at Tremont Temple but occasionally at Park St. Church. People have come up with ideas of primary and secondary sources of action, but really all of that is outside of direct Biblical teaching. Hi guys, great posts, esp (from a personal point of view) from Jeff S, TW, Nick Bulbeck and others its been such a long thread I cant remember them all . Meyer 17. All of the people Ive met who have TAUGHT about Calvinism are clear on the definition, though. We pulled no punches, but I believe we came away with a greater respect for each other and, dare I say, love. They want pure milk easy to digest, soothing, warms their tummy, meets their needs, gives comfort, nourishes them and helps them grow. God is NOT in control. On this Wikipedia the language links are at the top of the page across from the article title. Here is the question. Youre more than welcome at my table, Jeff. As for being Lutheran, I think people get this confused sometimes as if all Lutherans follow everything Luther wrote. It is, imo, impossible to pin any of this down in some sort of neat and easy formula, but the Lord knows, we (humans) keep trying! I have a couple key thoughts (key to me anyway) which have taken form as I have extricated myself from reformed theology over the past year: 1. I recently found the article online hereand it made me cry as I thought about the journey of my life since that night. But I dont think I have to pick. Need I say that an airtight perfect system spanning 2400+ pages and written by a young lawyer smacks of know-it-all with a bit of OCD? I worked in a womens shelter and was surprised at the number of pastors wives (well-known ones, too) who were regulars in the shelter. I was a Jesus Movement convert, too in 1972. Or if I make it to the Board of Ordained Ministry in February, Ill share my recording. Tell himhow much you love the Lord and live outyour Christianlife. Why the pessimism? for what its worth, im the product of many generations of energetic, committed Christian people, several career missionaries to asia, and church since day 1. If it does, then Im find with that. The hard part about this is I dont think these folks even realize what they are doing. However, for thosewho believe that evangelical churches are theologically light, my church experiences would challenge their assumption. Cant wait to read the comments section of Dees forthcoming post to Calvinists. Bring them to heaven? "I want to have a discussion with you. I recently engaged the discussion on Denny Burks website regarding the PC(USA) rejecting the song In Christ Alone because of the line The wrath of God was satisfied. Its a tough line to walk, though. Press J to jump to the feed. Thanks. Hester, I am eagerly waiting for you to do your next blog post! I chose to believe in the sovereignty of God and the goodness of God, even though I dont understand how those two things can co-exist. I will say they are much more composed personalities. Argo. I guess there will always be that tension there. I had no reason not to believe. By accurate, I mean that its the definition of the term when it came into being. (Keep in mind Sproul Jr.s insistence that God always acts according to his strongest desire.). TWW received a comment from one of our nice Calvinist readers. I will say they are much more composed personalities. The non Christian world will know there is a God by our love for other Christians. I want to say here that I dont think that God takes pleasure in these events and I dont think that God forces people to sin, even in their thoughts. It doesnt conform to our sense of fairness and love. I watched past the first 15 minutes to watch the whole thing, and the video host quotes Calvinists at many times (showing their quotes typed up on the screen), and some of the Cals he quoted do believe God is the author of evil. Did you see my comment in the post about a nice Calvinist? And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, Which commandment is the most important of all? Jesus answered, The most important is, Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. But, if, during an online conversation about Calvinism, someone writes that the discussion is disturbing to him/her, certain questions arise beyond the obvious point that its wrong to attack that person: Should the conversation be halted? @ dee: Hey, my Lutheran background is a lot of things, but Calvinist it aint! http://www.seattlepi.com/news/us/article/Head-of-Southern-Baptist-school-marks-20-years-4780941.php. The following are theologians, listed alphabetically, who are non-Calvinist in their soteriology. Pg 75 @ Muff Potter: I know this all too well, Im afraid, but it goes for *anything* even art, music, theater, etc. Now I dont see either of those reflected in what I know of historic Calvinism (and both are directly addressed in the WCF), but if some people want to say they believe those things, then those people are in error for believing them because they are unbiblical, not because they are unCalvinistic. Before you do, let me ask: would you take the same tone with another man, and do you believe your words honor God? A must-read article from Christa Browns blog: http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/2013/09/dont-mess-with-texas-baptists_2.html, Im sorry that I was not clear. We can just debate doctrine. Roger Olson 23. (My experience, from childhood on.). Excellent work! They do not understand that there are alternative answers by good non-Calvinist theologians as well. System- & neat-little-box-free. I hear the person,"Calvin," discussed more than "Jesus." Comments moving to the To Calvinist posts from this point. Until these last five years, Ihad thought it possible for everyone to get along, even attend the same church. I dont know if that helps or confuses- I wish I could have quoted more. There is a new evangelism taking place. Fine- no one is calling him out. The bullying was behind the scenes. I am not promoting Lutheranism as the only place to go. Feel free to correct me if Im wrong. It is a goal of this blog to extendthe dialog to include Calvinists and even find areas with which we can agree. The ideas of bad and good are meaningless in Calvinist doctrine. I didn't quite understand the sin stuff. It was their belief and in my mind, their belief only affects them. Ive learned a lot since then. Why did he care so much about what the Bible said? Then I discovered I was not, and it was like a moment of deliverance from a mighty weight that had been pressing me down. And I agree with this. It must start somewhere and with those who are willing to give up their cherished arguments for the sake of something better. CALVIN! There is too much work to be done. John Calvin, Paul Helm John Calvin W. Robert Godfrey Crossway is a not-for-profit Christian ministry that exists solely for the purpose of proclaiming the gospel through publishing gospel-centered, Bible-centered content. This is what Calvinists need to come to terms with. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. However, there are a lot of us (from Liturgical Protestant churches, as well as the RCC, Orthodox churches, the German/Dutch anabaptist churches etc.) I liked that. I dont know. Wow-at least you got the Christian part. Thank you, Deb. In this final submission on this series, I interact with the [] Besides, you have a long way to go to be considered mean. So I Must Be! as the indicator. I dont want to convince anyone of a certain brand of Christianity. But something has changed in the last number of years. my reformed acquaintances pushing the calvinist pillars. I will be honest JeffS and JeffB , I am often confused by the moving target that you described before. Due to the successful ministries of dynamic authors, preachers and speakers such as Louie Giglio, John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Kevin DeYoung and Josh Harris, Calvinist/Reformed theology is ranked, according to Time magazine, 3rd on the list of Top 10 Ideas that are Changing the World Right Now . I do hope when I sad that comment, I said illogical TO ME, as in general I hesitate to call other people views illogical. Calvinist believe in the total depravity of man while Arminians hold to an idea dubbed "partial depravity." Calvinism: Because of the Fall, man is totally depraved and dead in his sin. People like RC Sproul understand that he can woo you all day long with heady notions of secondary causes because he understands that it will appeal to your false, but emotionally necessary urge for feeling loved and your sense of justice, without actually conceding his utterly deterministic assumptions. 9. Hmmm all I can say is, it depends on the individual and in what way theyre hurting. . Other authors, some who have made extensive contributions in the fields of biblical and theological studies, include Kenneth Mathews, Tremper Longman III, Walt Kaiser, Chuck Quarles, Stan Porter, Malcolm Yarnell III, and David Dockery. James P. Boyce<br>Ernest Reisinger is a Calvinist<br>I know Jerry Bridges is Reformed, but I'm not certain how many points he is<br><br><br>John MacArthur is Baptist, but he calls his church Community Church (unless fredman knows something I don't know about! 2. Addressing what many evangelical Christians are concerned about todayso-called "new Calvinism," a movement embraced by a generation labeled as "young, restless, Reformed" Against Calvinism is the only book of its kind to offer objections from a non-Calvinist perspective to the current wave of Calvinism among Christian youth. Some of the resources that have helped me to be a non calvinist are. Anywaythats fine. Concerning double predestination: If by it you mean that God makes people sin so that he can judge them and send them to hell no, I dont think the Bible says that. Ann. Which is fine! I actually returned here wondering if you would even let my comment stand, considering you are being so charitable and I called Calvinism a horrible doctrine! And in their zeal, they often miss obvious signs that are bringing the hurt person even deeper into pain. I found an interweb site a while back that had a downloadable version of Calvins Pentateuch (as I call it, by analogy rather than because it contains five of anything in particular). Charles . CALVIN! It is nice to meet someone who remembers.If you dont mind me prying, where did you grow up? This is as it should be, imo. I have a very low tolerance for that kind of thing. John Calvin (1509-1564) Michael Servetus (1511-1553) John Knox (c. 1513-1572) Teresa of Avila (1515-1582) Theodore Beza (1519-1605) Peter Baro (1534-1599) Caspar Coolhaes (1536-1615) Herman Witsius (1636-1708) Charles Borromeo (1538-1584) John of the Cross (1542-1591) Johannes Piscator (1546-1625) Richard Hooker (1554-1600) . I went through what Calvinists themselves call the cage stage, meaning that young or new Calvinists belong in one. I had found the light. Wasnt that we didnt know we had differences but we were Christians who were in it together. Per PSA, I am pretty sure that that is the official stance of the Lutheran end of thingsbut I really shouldnt be talking about theories of the atonement because I havent studied them worth a hoot. They are harmed by the teachings they sat under and then accused of misrepresentation when they blog about it. I let the philosophers consider those questions. Oy. God doesnt have internal conflicts, though sometimes the Bible portrays it this way to make a point. This is not the Calvinist thought process. How to Resign from a Church We all went to Bostons Youthtimeno mention of Calvinism, Armininism or in between like me. The reformed assume the posture that they alone safeguard Gods honor. Dee, thank you for sharing that testimony, and article. The title suggests hes going to argue that something I dont agree with and Cavlinists historically do not believe is false.