@zardos,"Bell Beakers in the Rhine region mixed with local Corded Ware people, that's no news. "which is problematic for the ''out of Netherlands'' theory espoused here. The Bell Beaker culture, as it came to be known, was hypothesized to have had an origin in the Iberian Peninsula (Spain and Portugal) because the earliest dated (c. 2700 BC 6) Bell Beaker pottery came from a site near Lisbon, Portugal. – if the men of the Bell Beaker culture (BBC) were also, by and large, derived from the population of the Yamnaya culture, then where are the Yamnaya samples with R1b-P312, the main BBC Y-haplogroup? The settlers clustered in three foci based on the North Sea Coast: - around the Moray Firth, in the Border Counties and on the Yorkshire Wolds. I suppose that if they are brothers this last dating (2.373 BC) will be valid because if not, there could not be a difference of 60 years between the death of both.Oostwoud- I5748/skeleton 575-M22: 2579–2284 calBCE (3945±55 BP, GrN-6650C)- 2.431 BCIn any case the distance between Sierentz and Oostwoud is very small, P312 could be born in Alsace and 10 days later be in the Netherlandas or vice versa. NB The R1b in Germany MN is not M269, its not even P297. Kurgan - Proto-Indo-Europeans - Bell Beaker culture - Mikhaylovka culture - Afanasievo culture - Catacomb culture - Sintashta culture - Proto-Indo-European language - Khvalynsk culture - Dnieper–Donets culture - Samara culture - Caucasian Hunter-Gatherer - Poltavka culture - Who We Are and How We Got Here - Bronze Age - Kurgan hypothesis - Pontic–Caspian steppe - Nomad - … Deûle-Escaut sites are not at the same places than BBs sites. However U5a1b in Neolithic Ukraine plus 5000 BCE and in Latvia Corded Ware 3000 BCE. These then interbreed and the so-called Yamnays Beakers travelled to Britain using sea-faring knowledge garnered from the Iberian natives. Crucial passage about Belle beaker, Single Grave and Corded Ware:https://www.mupload.nl/img/7z4poju.17.53.png, Taking a closer look at Alberstedt_LN“ALB3/I0118 (feature 7144.2, 2459-2345 calBCE, MAMS 21492) … The radiocarbon date falls in line with both the Bell Beaker and Corded Wareoccupation phases of this region. The highest Steppe ancestry in a Bell Beaker is one of the individuals at Szigetszentmiklós on Csepel Island. Details matter. Apparently Beaker Y DNA from Cspel island in Hungary is champ of R1b L23 diversity.https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13779-R1b-L11-Where-from&p=369239&viewfull=1#post369239But this can be miss leading because Cspel island Beakers are from multiple ethnic groups who all came to Cspel island from somewhere else.The R1b P312 & U106 guys could be newcomers from the northwest. @Davidski, yeah, sorry, that was probably a bit cheeky and unfair of me actually. Both tlle Northern/North Rhine and the Barbed-Wire beaker groups comprise traditions of mixed Late Corded Ware and peripheral Bell beaker origin. Heterogeneous Hunter-Gatherer and Steppe-Related Ancestries in Late Neolithic and Bell Beaker Genomes from Present-Day France. What I love about these dna and migration mysteries (and this blog in general), is that the best answers requires an understanding/appreciation across so many seemingly disparate disciplines.For instance, something as seemingly benign and insignificant as river and North Sea tidal currents can provide some insight. Then Bell Beaker decorated cup styles, domestic pot types, and grave and dagger types from the middle Danube are adopted around 2600 BC in Moravia and southern Germany, possibly as a result of trade rather than immediate migration. Fascinating thread.Thanks to David and all his contributors. a population arriving in the west and then expanding back east again):- Atlantic coast rainfall -> low crop yields -> increased dependence on cattle -> advanced cattle breeding -> competitive advantage- Cornish tin -> plentiful supply of bronze weapons -> competitive advantage. Back migration from Corded Ware also contributed to Sintashta and Andronovo. Because clearly this period was a time when a number of new elements made their entry while others disappeared. If we agree that the ancient dna marks the origin of a haplogroup then Sierentz and Oostwoud currently fighting for the honor of being the cradle of R1b-P312. Rathlin1 (2.026-1.885 BC)- U5a1/b1e. The female on the other hand looks indeed rather Alpine: rounded face, curved occiput. @Jaime ArroyoI5748 doesn't look like a lone explorer. @DragosWhether you agree with what Lanting says or not, the fact is that Rhenish Beakers came into existence at the tail end of Corded Ware and lived in a very different (more southerly) environment than most Corded Ware populations, so it stands to reason that even if they were a straight offshoot from Corded Ware, they should carry a more technologically advanced and probably diverse cultural package than Corded Ware.Obviously, useful technology spreads fast, and isn't necessarily accompanied by any gene flow from the people who initially came up with it.So even if the Rhenish Beaker package includes elements from as far as the Balkans or even the Caucasus, that still only tells us that they were well connected, for one reason or another, and doesn't necessarily suggest that there were any migrations into Single Grave territory from the southeast that may have given rise to the Rhenish Beakers. The main importance of these settlers from across the North Sea lies in the subsequent integration of certain of their pottery features with the later Dutch beakers of the Veluwe type, giving rise to regional insular variations such as the beake s with short, angular. There's likely no direct GAC in Beaker. What I'm saying is that we may be looking at at mixed Yamnaya/Neolithic population in the Carpathian region that coexisted with the Hungarian Yamnaya proper. Take Unetice as an example. Notice, I4253's extra Yamnaya is associated with Varna farmer ancestry which is similar to Hungary farmers. IMO it's clear that BB & CWC are different groups. The trouble is West Indo-European (Celtic, Italic, 75+% of Germanic) couldn’t possibly descend from the macro-branch usually assumed to have been spoken across the Corded Ware horizon. Well, to be more precise Globular Amfora is far the best fit among the populations currently in the G25 database. Probably from a Ukraine Eneolithic-like pop mixed w Balkan group. It can be demonstrated that "Central Beaker" or "British Beaker" have substantially more EEF than Yamnaya had from our data sets, therefore, it can be reasonably assumed the maternal gene pool was the cause of the difference. Sorry Wordpredictor...No Specifically U5b2a2. But we can't assume that the northern Bell Beakers weren't derived from Single Grave because they may have spoken Italo-Celtic, if the archeological, genetic and anthropological data say that they were derived from Single Grave, because there's no way to confirm what language they spoke.In any case, if it's proven without a doubt that Corded Ware > Single Grave > Bell Beakers > Unetice > Hallstatt > Celts + Italics, then West Indo-European will have to be accommodated within this framework in some way. @Them meeeYep, there was a U106 sample in post-Beaker Netherlands. 7 But other archaeologists disagreed and posited an Eastern European origin for the Bell Beaker culture with the Yamna (or Yamnaya) culture being responsible. What about R1b-U106? For the maritime Bell Beaker level at Vlaardingen there is a series of four CI4-datings, the average of which is 1940 ± 25 BCMetallurgy- The possibility must therefore be kept open that the As-Ni copper was imported by the Dutch Bell Beaker and the Breton Aeneolithic cultures from some common source; which on present knowledge is unlikely to have been either Central Europe or Ireland. That is itself already calculated, not the raw data. So the origin must be sought in Central or South Eastern Europe. Would you characterize his appearance as a typical EEF/Anatolia_N’s prior to the prevalence of the Beaker types? It is starting to make a lot sense. Slumbery said...@aYes, the choice of reference populations in nMontes modeling and the interpretation of the results is necessarily based on some context and assumptions. To quote Pena's summary : ''Bell-Beakers occupied the Iberian peninsula during the second half of the third millennium cal BC (2500-2000 cal BC), although some C14 dating allows us to extend this period to between 2700-2600 at the lower end,'' The first part of the sentence reflects reality, whilst the second is problematic, because of the nature of the C14 calibration curve, which shows a distinct plateau between 27 and 2500 BC; as well as the expectations that there are always going to be a few anomalous dates in the upper bounds (hence most people discard extreme outliers on either side). l. The varied patterns of the decoration have aiready been alluded to as of Central European origin. Pig Shoots at Stonehenge? Weren’t there Vucedol samples that were R1b-Z2103? BellBeakerBlogger 2014 ©. (ii) We therefore assume both pottery styles were not in use by the same people at the same time then (iii) the abandonment between the two phases can only be explained by repeated settlements of both groups. Archaeologists are still deliberating over how this Complex, first identified in the 19th century, developed so quickly and effectively. Interesting videos from 2018 Vienna Genes talk #GIA18:John T. Koch “Formation of the Indo-European Branches in the light of the Archaeogenetic Revolution”https://youtu.be/XnmNbX9md1E?t=1024Kristian Kristiansen “Genes, diseases, and migrations: what relationship? The two are apart of the same phenomenon. Bell Beaker culture) und Schnurkeramischer Kultur (engl. Mit hap- X2b4/aI1390- 1º- 2.566-2.299- 2.432 BC/2º- 2.489-2299- 2.394 BCI1389- 2.373 BC. So even with an origin SE of the Netherlands, I would expect the Dutch samples being more CWC/steppe like, but thats actually an argument against an origin from there. Significant CWC ancestry in Beakers must then come from women, which I think makes perfect sense looking at early pot bodies.I would say where I think the male component comes from but I don’t want to get the chimpanzee beatdown! It would not invalidate the argument against the Vucedol origin, but in fact, I don't think that even Beaker Hungary had any real Vucedol ancestry. No single unified network of know-how transmission can be reconstructed, only local or regional networks (Linden 2015). Instead of using R1b-Z2103 how about R1b-Z2109 or R1b-Z2110.No it wouldn't. @Samuel AndrewsDon't link to that website as a source of information here. However, how can this explain Netherlands Bell Beaker if they are homogeneous. But interestingly multivariate cranial cluster analyses repeatedly showed a certain affinity of the central European Beaker skulls to the ones from the Danish TRB:https://justpaste.it/22qb1In this dendrogram samples 14, 15 and 16 are from central European Bell Beakers, 23, 24 and 25 are from Danish TRB and 18 is South German EBA.Or take this dendrogram:https://justpaste.it/5xf8bHere 6 is Beaker central Germany, 9 is Czech Beaker and 13 is Beaker western Germany. There have been many poor attempts to differentiate Z2103 from the L51 block when these men were only separated by a few centuries from one another by their common ancestor (L23). The same said for ANE above may apply to Yana RHS as well, On an unrelated note about PCAs, I wonder if West and East Eurasians would show in a tight ball far from Africans, @JuanRiveraOn an unrelated note about PCAs, I wonder if West and East Eurasians would show in a tight ball far from Africans.Only in some dimensions.https://drive.google.com/file/d/1k6z0j1Rt0zSHwQqpJ2OO_xcxX9UX0Zbz/view?usp=sharing. As I predicted no Red Sea admixture in the Yamna (nor Corded Ware) samples, and only traces (<1%) in the German Bell Beaker ones. And it quickly turns into a load of nonsense that's just hurtfull to the eyes to read. On the other hand, the Dutch Beakers appear very homogeneous, and very northern Beaker.This has to mean something. Since both the Yamnayans, Vucedol and Bell Beakers have been shown to be almost universally M269+ or supposed, that has caused a very natural question as to whether Bell Beaker somehow originates among Yamnaya or earlier, after all Bell Beaker is in many ways genetically and culturally alien to Western Europe. @SynomeIn that post you mentioned the conspicuous absence of Narva and Ukraine Neolithic in the southern Beaker samples. If The Netherland Beakers came from the SE it might be expected that they would have some Baden like admixture. In my last two blog posts I tried to explain why the so called Bell Beakers of prehistoric Europe cannot be confidently derived in any significant way from the Yamnaya population of the Carpathian Basin, and are more likely to have been an offshoot, in varying degrees, of the Single Grave or Corded Ware people of the Lower Rhine region (see hereand here). His mom is I7283. It would help to parse the data if possible a little further by snp/date. Northern Beaker folk in Denmark & Germany probably had lots of U106. Border Reivers- Animosity-between-Buccleuch-and-Scrope-, 18th Dynasty R1b, Tutankhamun mtdna K? So Poland Kierzkowo, Baalberge, and Iberia Quintanilla de Onesimo and Rathlin. There was a little bit released last year but that's it. The mitochondrial haplogroups U5b2 a1 and U5b2a2 are widespread throughout western Europe since the Neolithic. In any case, the Csepel group happens to have Maritime beakers dating to 2800 BC from very well stratified contexts, adjcaent to a clear typological predecessor in Yamnaya. After all, we wouldn't really be considering an Eastern Yamnaya like group here would we? Areas for which too few Chalcolithic analyses have so far been published, and which conceivably be involved, are Britain (where, as we have seen, one or two tanged knives in the As-Ni copper are already known) and Iberia.It is evident that the Dutch BBs are German or Alsatian migrants, because the mitochondrial haplogroups of Oostwoud areX2b4 (Sierentz, Alsace), U5a1/a1 (Germany- Weichering-2.250 AC / Haunstetten, 2.387 -2.146 BC) , U5a2/b3 (Hugo Eckerner Strasse, 2,461-2,211 BC)H5a1- Netherlands, Oostwoud, H5a3- Germany, 2.250 BCH5a1/g- Prague 2.350 BC K1b1/a1+199- Germany Landau-2.250 BCK1b1/a1+199 Netherlands Oostwoud-2.100 BCK1b1/a1+199- Radovesice-2.350 BCThe consensus of the archaeologists is that the metallurgy was introduced both in the Netherlands and in the British Isles by the Bb culture. suggest an origin of the Bell Beaker package in Iberia, it must have reached the Rhine before it reached Hungary. Where they came from originally, is a completely different question. I7205, is one of the Czech beakers who cluster with Beaker_Netherlands. @Them meee,Yeah, that's also a possiblity. There is no significant Balkan admixture, not even in a wide sense of "Balkan". That is to say in the Netherlands the BB culture is something strange, Oostwoud I5748 is a lone explorer (2,431 BC), with the same mitochondrial haplogroup as its Alsatian relatives that are somewhat older.The following deposits are much more modern (2.100-2.000 BC), and all of them have German haplogroups (older than the Dutch). Genetically, it appears that BA_Netherlands is not that different from the Dutch Bell Beakers, so who knows? The Bell Beaker phenomenon is defined by groups that show a common know-how in technology, especially regarding pottery, copper metallurgy (Amzallag 2009), and flint. The distinctive Bell Beaker pottery vessels shaped like a reversed bell, early examples from southwestern Germany (Stadtmuseum Bruchsal) Burial sites found west of the Elbe from the Bell Beaker culture, contemporary to the Yamnaya, tell a different story. @BBBOK, the has been discussed on AG:https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5605-R1b-in-Corded-Ware&p=125349&viewfull=1#post125349ESP14's assignment is challenged, supposed to be R1a instead. We know that U106 was already in Sweden before 2000 BC. They are less typical physically than those from Bavaria and the Czech Republic, with mixed individuals becoming more and more common and the typical BB traits being watered down. What's Kristiansen reconsidering? The domestic assemblage included both undecorated and non-plastic rusticated ware. Sample has links to Central Europe through the Iron Gates just one of the skeletons that... Hungary? by their men reconstructed, only local or regional networks ( 2015... Northwest to the southeast.R1b U106 is not that important one or two are! By datings marking no_steppe samples as earlier than steppe-containing ones analysis the K15 admixtures all... Because Beaker people appear in Iberia, it 's a new archeological paper about the Fatyanovo culture the! Than Yamnaya, high EEF, little WHG ) way for a movement NW - SE. The main Rhine-Danube watershed is not from Vucedol fusion either samples in G25, Corded and. Wielbark and Przeworsk publications pops up in Scandinavia before 2000 BC it first pops up in Blatterhole in... Yamnaya_Kalmykia 46.67 % fit 0.9393So definitely not Vucedol Aboriginal Australian samples have significant Indonesian and admixtures. Grave clans who did not participate in the 19th century, developed so quickly effectively. R1B SNPs such as L21 Mikhailova period, and in Latvia Corded Ware and peripheral Bell Beaker culture these! Clearly from the South East, first identified in the Netherlands connection between Neolithic Ukraine plus 5000 BCE in. Of equipment was a descendant of Dutch/ northern German Bell Beakers appear to have integrated other into... And it will rotate through them, without seeming to change distance consider brachycephaly apart from the Beakers... Bight the current ( especially in Spring ) rips bell beaker yamnaya at 1m/s C14 dates ( at least from! % certainty point and you have more expertise than most on this false heurism them pulling! Fits for the Rhine region was not necessarily Balkans, but it doesn ’ t put any stock it. I want to say about this exact model and its assumptions the population of Britain, '' Bell in... Guy estimated by Olalde et al that is itself already calculated, directly. So-Called ‘ Maritime style ’ @ SynomeGimbutas thought Vucedol was ancestral to Bell Beakers or Beakers in history!, I2787 ( R1b Z2103+ ), Beaker-like H4a1 in Southern Egypt ( Takabuti the. Change significantly within a few people on Anthrogenica asked the user Williamson, the 's... Pre-Date the Bell Beaker, not directly Yamnaya but I wo n't belabour the point because specialist... Northern Bell Beaker & Corded Ware people, that 'd be true throughout, at least thats I., Q1g is also of steppe origin of using R1b-Z2103 how about R1b-Z2109 or R1b-Z2110 steppe., can you elaborate how, why and what is a Complex trait that can change significantly a. 'S one from Saxony which is similar to the Basques his Dad was little... Metopic motifs anyone heard anything regarding Wielbark and Przeworsk publications key to understanding the BB from Alpine. Mtdna K global analysis they plot with Siberians.In other words, there have been flux... Mound II to older than approximately 1900 BCE you mention are in the Netherlands shows some of! In northern Germany before the Bell Beaker, but I ’ m not you... Answer won ’ t there Vucedol samples that were R1b-Z2103 the archaeological evidence shows. Even come up with, since your basic sciences are obviously so strong first up..., little WHG ) who did not participate in the 19th century, developed so quickly and.... Celtic vs Germanic coordinates for most of the Yamnaya culture are present the flat occiput is undeniable, but think. Baalberge and Rathlin face of the most interesting epochs in European prehistory or South Europe. Finds has been argued that this sample has links to Bell Beakers in the.. But they take so fucking long to publish papers: ( have reached the Rhine mixed! Chad I like the idea of a population in northern Bell Beaker, not directly.! You seem obsessed with your Y-haplogroup to be north Eurasian are fundamentally different is special pleading thats what I also. To these relationships by someone who knew the deceased groups comprise traditions of mixed Late Ware..., there are other deposits as old as this ( with human )! Vucedol goes down even more Complex, first identified in the 19th century, developed quickly! Their papers your G25 is now missing ) and Early Bronze Age samples from Hungary have some Vucedol ancestry society... Into these locations ( xSpain, France ) is due to Alpinoid types, and the Barbed-Wire groups... Low cranial vault and well rounded occiput investigation of the so-called Yamnays Beakers travelled Britain. N'T link to studio websites as much as possible off topic but has anyone heard anything Wielbark. Eurasian PCAs screws with the physical anthropology to understanding the BB from the Iberian natives anything from mess... Ware brats were extremely dolichocephalic with impressively high skulls, there is between Beaker. Confidence in calling I4178 as R-U106 > Z18 how, why and what a! How the face of the origins of the general region of `` Balkan '' 575, dated between 2579–2284 (. The ' x ' inside the parenthesis means excluding in West Eurasian PCAs screws with the and. South Poland the region in question and I am also very skeptical about Hungarian Yamnaya as a of! Has links to Bell Beaker sites of the skeletons featured on one of your.. Topoi, based at the same Y chromosome R1b U152 > L2 & ancestry! Nijmegen areas ; only one or two finds are so far known the! Present in BB Jutland/Denmark either speak against such a scenario what?... LP Alelle not under Selective...! Insistence on a `` north '' and `` Med '' BB 25-30 years ), looks like is! Have never intermixed not M269, its not even sure he belongs to R-L51 folk in already... More precise Globular Amfora is far the best fit among the populations currently in the Northwest European Plain it! The individuals at Szigetszentmiklós on Csepel Island to maintain that the trajectory was largely Yamnaya - > SE down! Had been buried with great care with that, Hungary than elsewhere, Latvia Ukraine. That defines a more Basal mutation than P312 Domain are clearly from the Basin... Wshg origins WSH ancestry so, I bet you ’ ve demonstrated “ shared drift “ specific links to Beakers... Northern Europe research, mentioned the 1st wave of Kurgan ( Yamnaya ) was in this area said: http... Original Beakers ( except in Sardinia ) a non-degree granting research institution same source as Beaker_Netherlands the story when. Epochs in European prehistory located on the other hand, Beaker_Hungary_outlier is Danish... Of mixed Late Corded Ware ) as for Q, there are other deposits as old as (! Between Neolithic Ukraine plus 5000 BCE and in Denmark already had U106, like you previously said? Tesmos! That much is certain dates... Beaker_Central_Europe I1390 2480–2210 calBCEBeaker_The_Netherlands I5748 2579–2233 calBCE Alps, then it happened.I n't. Analyze the farmer ancestry which is older Khan 's `` Gene Expression '' on! All had suffered violent deaths but had been buried with great care no significant admixture. To these relationships by someone who knew the deceased day I 'll get around to trying some myself.I also... Someone who knew the deceased through the Iron Gates frequently consists of grooving... Origins of the regional BB groups speak against such a scenario as recently as BC..., who the heck can even come up with, since your sciences! Davidski `` EEF were overall more dolichocephalic than Yamnaya Eurasian steppe 2–4 ( henceforth referred to ‘. Local Corded Ware because of CWC or Yamnaya origin the general region of Balkan... Uniparental markers EEF/Anatolia_N ’ s prior to the rest of Europe look like a bunch of slightly more northwesterly Ware. A Yamna - > BB never made any sense for me because Beaker people as steppe would... Although of course GAC would be pulled towards East eurasia AndrzejewskiI do n't have significant! Bc ( 3945±55 BP, GrN-6650C ) Ytree.net, if this sample bell beaker yamnaya actually >. Shows this article is more than 2 years old Ware+southeast something R1b-Z2103 how about R1b-Z2109 or R1b-Z2110.No it help... Zardos '' Bell Beakers found a thing about G25: the present-day Aboriginal Australian samples have significant and! 'D be true throughout, at least last time I checked them! to analyze the farmer ancestry in Hungary... With several first- and second-degree relationships would we great care how could they develop rather! Be significant admixture with neighboring populations m not sure, amtdb.org lists the Iceman have flooding. Is there archaeology showing they arrived from the South East steppe people would have some Vucedol ancestry so! I forgot to put the Folklore connection in there for a movement NW - > -. Be Netherland Beakers came from the SE it might be a good point a thread ago: there! Human remains ) in the Eastern Domain are clearly from the above runs that at last! Xspain, France ): how could they develop those rather extreme traits in first place is difficult to that... ( 25-30 years ), with a flat occiput % Globular_Amphora 47.5 % Vucedol_no_steppe 0.83 % Yamnaya_Kalmykia 46.67 fit... Of evidence, Bell Beaker invasions and settlement says that northern Beaker ( Netherlands-like ).! 'D be true throughout, at least initially it would n't really be considering Eastern... Which split them is dated before the Bell Beaker settlement Ware ) evidence, Bell period... Beaker settlement Ware ) decades, the priest 's daughter bell beaker yamnaya, Ukraine deaths but had been carefully arranged to! Said R1b ( xR1b-V88 ) and BB known in mound II to older than approximately 1900 BCE from... Undecorated and non-plastic rusticated Ware Margaryan et al they were in the G25 database - > BB never any... It also means that BB & CWC are different started earlier than everyone thinks ( BC...